• _default.WebHome - Web Utilities section
• Main.WebHome - Web Utilities section
• Sandbox.WebHome - Web Utilities section
• Trash.WebHome - Web Utilities section
• TWiki.WebTopicCreator - "Create"
• Bugs.Item1515 - Localised formatting help
• web leftbars: access keys on Search field and Jump field
• TWikiRegistration - add "ChangeEmailAddress" to "Registered users can ChangePasswords and ResetPasswords"
• merge_notice in templates/messages.tmpl - avoid "here" link in "You can see the differences here" (possibly other places as well)
• oops.pattern.tmpl: "Current parent:" and "(none)"

Please add your pending content to above bullet list.

-- PTh

Undeferred, post Dakar

CC

This topic has been forgotten. Unfortunately too late for 4.1 now.

-- PTh

i see no checkins on this topic and it's now irrelevant; can this bug be discarded now?

-- WN

Re-opening this for post 4.1 release. We missed the string freeze deadline, but work needs to be done...

-- PTh

Peter, what's the status of this? is it closed yet?

CC

Work still pending...

-- PTh

OK, since the bulk of the work is in topics, and just about anyone could do it, I'm going to class it as Documentation

CC

I cannot get any feel for what the 'pending' work is, can those that know, please update this bug with sufficient information that 'anyone' can just do it? Right now, its languishing due to insufficient detail to proceed.

-- SvenDowideit - 24 Nov 2007

There is a conflict here that you should consider. A conflict between usability I18N-wise and keeping the editing of topics low on the TWiki:Codev.NerdoMeter.

When we use MAKETEXT we change easy to read and edit text into something very geeky looking. And if you happen to be a German or a Dane trying to edit some text, instead of seeing some German or Danish text you see some English text and some MAKETEXT variables.

When we use MAKETEXT in the topics and templates that are not usually being customized by ordinary users the advantage of international usage is higher than keeping things simple.

But when it comes to WebHome we are talking about the index page of a web. And the way I have seen WebHome used the ordinary users quickly turn this topic into a portal or entry page and it is totally altered from the original version.

Turning WebHome into a MAKETEXT orgie is therefore - IMHO - not a good idea because it alienize the normal users and make it more scary to start changing the topic. And if you are creating a German WebHome of a new web you have made you will write the whole thing in German anyway so all these MAKETEXTs are also a waste and makes the tailoring more difficult because now you have to disect the content of all these MAKETEXTs.

We have a 1000 doc topics in TWiki which is English and will always remain English unless some miracle happens and 50 new contributors join the project and start keeping all documentation up to date.

We need to keep a good separation between what is user interface which is translated and documentation which is not. And the content of WebHome is on the documentation side IMHO. WebHome is the most altered and viewed topic in any web and will always be translated and created by the users. Only exception is the TWiki web home and since this is the index of a large English only set of documentation it makes little sense to have this web home being a mix of English and a little local language here and there. It just makes things worse.

I will lower this bug item to Normal - but keep it open because there may be a few strings in the real UI that we have still missed.

-- KennethLavrsen - 24 Nov 2007

Kenneth, I agree with what you write.

But, I'm raising it back to Urgent for the simple fact that its been open for almost 2 years, without sufficient SMART details to be closeable. My recomendation is that it be closed, and when someone comits to doing a specific, detailed work on this issue, a new bug is opened.

-- SvenDowideit - 24 Nov 2007

I agree current webhomes are scary to new users. An idea would be a template web for each translation - so a new web could be instantiated from a localized version of the default template web (no maketexts). This is not coherent with current translation procedures though.

-- SteffenPoulsen - 25 Nov 2007

I agree with Kenneth, better not to MAKETEXTify WebHome. Steffen has a good idea on using a template web per language. This is out of scope though for 4.2. I suggest to lower priority to normal.

-- TWiki:Main.PeterThoeny - 25 Nov 2007

Urgent or Normal. Lets eat the sucker. Waiting for release is much better than fighting about urgent vs normal. You eat an elephant in small bites.

So bite by bite - and please do not add new ones. Make new bug items then. These 16 bugs in an item are impossible to close

Item	Problem	Status
_default.WebHome	Web Utilities section	We do not MAKETEXT WebHome per concensus
Main.WebHome	Web Utilities section	We do not MAKETEXT WebHome per concensus
Sandbox.WebHome	Web Utilities section	We do not MAKETEXT WebHome per concensus
Trash.WebHome	Web Utilities section	We do not MAKETEXT WebHome per concensus
TWiki.WebTopicCreator	"Create"	The changes to PatternSkin make this obsolete. New WebCreateNewTopicTemplate uses MAKETEXT
Bugs.Item1515	Localised formatting help	Here we are talking about translating the entire formatting help topic. Doing this with MAKETEXT makes no sense like it does not with WebHome. We need a whole new scheme or method to translate entire doc topics and select the right one depending on selected language. How to do that should be raised as a feature proposal on Codev and not be buried inside a bug item like this one.
web leftbars	access keys on Search field and Jump field	Search and Jump fields are no longer in left bars.
TWikiRegistration	add "ChangeEmailAddress" to "Registered users can ChangePasswords and ResetPasswords"	Seems to be fixed a long time ago.
merge_notice in templates/messages.tmpl	avoid "here" link in "You can see the differences here" (possibly other places as well)	There is one place and that is the "You can see the differences ~[~[[_1]~]~[here~]~]" I do not understand the ~ syntax. What do they do???
oops.pattern.tmpl	"Current parent:" and "(none)"	Seems fixed a long time ago.

-- TWiki:Main.KennethLavrsen - 25 Nov 2007

So conclusion

• We seem to agree that WebHome should not become a MAKETEXT nerd hell. Good.
• Most bugs are already fixed
• One is a principled and fundamental discussion of how to translate entire documents without making impossible to main MAKETEXT nightmares. Belong to a feature proposal for a future release.
• One has nothing to do with translations but is an oppinion about not using "here" as a link. Fine. Fix it then. Tonight or next release or reuse existing string. We go on feature freeze in less than 24 hours from I write this. And for sure a "here" link is not a release breaker. I will close this bug report (don't want it listed in release notes). And make a Low priority new bugs item about the here link.

TWiki:Main.KennethLavrsen